This month's movie is The Dying Gaul. The story of a powerful and seductive Hollywood mogul convinces an impoverished West Hollywood writer, whose lover has recently died of AIDS, to sell his autobiographical screenplay for big bucks. The writer, Robert, knows he'll have to make major changes in the script (like changing the sex of the dying lover). During the rewrite, the producer, Jeffrey, takes Robert under his wing, introducing him to his wife Elaine, herself a closet screenwriter. Jeffrey seduces Robert for sex and Elaine s
educes Robert online out of curiosity about his sex life in grief. After Robert acknowledges that he is seeing a married man she realizes it is her husband, she then pulls him into a web using the knowledge of Robert background and their shared therapist to become someone that toys with Robert into thing it could be be dead lover. The entangled triangle of relationships threatens more than the completion of a film script.
What did you think of the story? Of Jeffery and Elaine? What did you think of Robert? Is he The Dying Gaul or was it his lover Martin? What about Roberts vulnerability? Elaine's reaction to finding out that Jeffrey was involved with Robert? Was there a universal theme or lesson? Was it reflective of Hollywood or society in general? What symbolism did you find in the film? Did it remind you of other films or works of art? What did you think of the performances?
Friday, January 23, 2009
OMG Movie Club
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Hey, where was that last picture at in the movie? I don't remember that.
I liked this movie; the ending was slightly puzzling to me and left me with all kinds of questions. But at least I could follow it, lol. I have to watch it again because I always miss things.
But I really liked Peter Sarsgaard as Robert. He did very well playing a vulnerable man - someone with integrity and honest intentions. I'm not sure whether to have totally believed him, though, when he told Elaine that he was only sleeping with Jeffrey because he was "afraid" of him. That he would end it as soon as the movie had become a reality.
And what in the heck did Elaine think she was doing? Jacking with his mind like that?
All 3 of these characters messed up and had to deal with the disastrous repercussions of their actions. Jeffrey just simply followed his tool - he wanted it all. He loved Elaine? Yeah, obviously not enough, did he. And I wondered if this was Jeffrey's first gay affair? I don't think I heard them say. And Elaine started being deceptive on the internet and boy, she ended up finding out a whole more than she wanted to. And Robert? The only thing I thought Robert was guilty of was having an affair with a married man. I gathered this was his first sex post-Malcolm, judging by his reaction to Jeffrey & his' first action in bed.
And that reaction of Robert's after that? I thought it was a little overextended. I could see Robert being upset, but the thing is he carried on for so long and I didn't see a single tear. They didn't even add some eyedrops or whatever they use for tears. Kind of a minor point, I know, but it ruined that moment for me.
I felt so bad for Robert when he first went to go see Jeffrey & Jeffrey told him mainstream wouldn't accept his script. What a hard thing to hear. And boy, he tried to stick to his guns. He tried. But the $$ won out and probably the sheer desire to see his script be made into a movie. I can't blame him.
And his relationship with Malcolm must have been so intense. He deeply loved him. And so did he really aid in euthanizing Malcolm? I couldn't tell for sure about that.
And how did Elaine find out all the intimate details of Robert's sex life? Was it from his therapist? Couldn't have been. I thought maybe she hired somebody to find out. That part I couldn't figure out.
Oh, and the moment when she realized who Robert was seeing? Man, that was something.
And why did Robert eat a little bit of that poisonous plant? I didn't get that. He obviously didn't eat enough to kill himself. And why did he want to kill Elaine? Because he was mad at her for deceiving him like that?
Phew, I could still go on, but I'm afraid to see how long my comment is already, lol. I'm going to have to leave pretty soon to go out for the evening.
This is also interesting because it did look like Jeffrey and Elaine had a very good marriage. I'm not sure what derailed Jeffrey there towards this affair other than he was unexplainably sexually attracted to Robert? That's why I'm really curious as to whether this was Jeffrey's first homosexual involvement or if he was bi or what.
The whole triangle was really dangerous. Elaine's jacking around with Jeffrey in the chatroom really hacked me off as she seemed to like pretending to be Malcolm as an angel. That was cruel.
OHHH! I almost forgot, though, about Robert's slip on one of their internet discussions. The one about Jeffrey's mention of maybe killing her. "I wonder if he really would. Kill her..." Oh man, that's what did it. I'd high tail it out of there.
Well, wait a minute. Maybe Robert didn't euthanize Malcolm? Because when Robert & Jeffrey were talking after that hot session (what were they doing it on - Jeffrey's desk in his office? A conference table? Dang!) Robert got very upset when Jeffrey asked if he had ever fantacized about ending Malcolm's suffering. And Robert said never.
I'm confused!!!!
And who thinks that was really Peter S. & Campbell Scott doing that scene on the conference table, lollll? I thought it looked like stand-ins. And the scene afterwards on the bed. Both of them wrapped up, entangled in each other. Erotic stuff.
Boy, Special, that last picture of Robert in the tub is bugging me. Where is that? Is that at the very, very end? I thought it went straight from Robert leaving Jeffrey and then a roll to credits.
hmmm. Sorry for the endless comments & questions. Getting my digs in now!!! I can't wait to hear what everyone else has to say about it.
I've had a crazy week and need to watch the movie tonight before I really get into the discussion as it has been over a year since I saw it.
But I do have a couple of comments. First, I think Peter is amazing in this movie.
Two, I hated the ending. I feel like it came out of nowhere, and I didn't really believe that Elaine would have killed herself like that. I think that Lucas, the writer/director, didn't know how to end it, and that rather than resolve some tough issues he took the easy way out, and resolved nothing.
I know. I couldn't believe that part either, Destiny. You're right. Bam. Right out of the blue. She drives into a wall?
I will check in later and see how discussion's going.
Peter is really good, I agree. He played vulnerability perfectly. I was nuts about Robert myself!!
And when I saw him with that scarf in the opening scenes, I kept thinking of Jake in his scarf. lol
It's been a while since I watched the movie, but I do remember seeing that scene of Peter in the bathtub. Wasn't it shortly before or after his ex called him about his son?
The scene where Peter starts crying I always figured must have been really hard to shoot. I thought it seemed very genuine and showing emotion like that when you're being close to someone (especially someone you "just" work with) must be a lot harder than even doing a sex scene.
I saw Robert telling Elaine that Jeffrey had mentioned killing her as deliberate, not a slip-up. If I remember correctly he had figured out at that point that she was pretending to be Malcolm and he wanted to punish her. It also meant that she would hightail it out of the house, which is what he needed her to do in order for his plan with the plant to work.
I have to say that I didn't really like the whole ending with the plant and the following accidents. To me it felt a little bit out of place.
I think that Jeffrey probably has had several gay affairs over the time of his marriage, but Elaine either didn't notice or it just never became as emotional as it did with him and Robert.
It have to admit was hard for me to have any sympathy for Elaine at the point where she started to pretend being Malcolm. She seemed to come off so different before that and while I understand being upset about your husband cheating on you with someone who is sort of your friend, it still seems over the top cruel to me.
But like I said I had the same reaction to Robert basically killing her.
Now I'm hoping I didn't completely mix up movies and make a total ass out of myself. I probably should have watched it again before commenting. Oh well... ;)
Okay, while I was writing you two made comments and it looks like I really mixed up something.
I thought Robert put some of the plants into Elaines food and that's why she drives into the wall?
Stubborn TB, LOL! At least you saw the right movie!
I still have a half hour to go (taking a break to tape FNL).
I think Jeffrey regularly has men on the side, based on the looks he gets from his assistants when he does into his office with Robert. What I'm not sure of is whether he is truly bisexual, or if he likes having the "normal' family life--and I think he really does love his wife--and is gay.
I loved that first sex scene where Peter is so vulnerable, I found it very believable. And I can't recall ever seeing a scene like that in a movie before involving a man.
I agree with you about the sex scene in the office/boardroom, I think they might have used body doubles given the long shots.
The scene in the tub is early in the film when indeed he call his ex, as Stubborn says.
Regarding how she finds out so much about Robert, there is that scene when she is in the pool and someone on the phone tells her "he got it." Didn't notice it the first time I saw it, but this time around I wondered if she'd have a private eye investigate him, or maybe copy the stuff on his computer? She has a box of disks by the computer, and doesn't one of the disks labeled Robert's letters?
Stubborn TB, LOL! At least you saw the right movie!
Oh man, I'm slow tonight. It took me awhile to get your comment.
You're the poster who accidently watched the wrong movie, right?
Did you ever get around to watching the right one?
Regarding how Elaine knows so much about Robert: I would assume that a lot of it comes from the fact that she read his screenplay since that is autobiographic.
But there was a scene where she genuinly surprised Robert with what she knew (about euthanizing Malcolm, I think), so maybe she really did hire someone. Or she simply guessed because she got the feeling from their talks that it might be what had happened.
I remember that I was wondering about those disks that she has by her computer, but back when I watched it I had assumed that she had simply kept log files of the chats so she can remember what she has told Robert about "herself".
LOLL! I remember that time when someone watched or thought we were going to discuss Priscilla but it was going to be To Wong Fu - no, it was the other way around. That was hilarious, anyways. Wow, Stubborn, well for not having seen it recently, you recall alot and very well. You & Destiny helped me out.
Okay, well, that explains why I don't remember that bathtub scene, then, because I kind of spaced out during that part.
And oh, I didn't realize maybe Robert was telling Elaine on purpose about Jeffrey talking about his fantasy of killing her. That puts a different spin on it for me. Right, he did put that deadly flower/plant scrapings into her salad. I didn't get what exactly happened to that salad, though. I think she put it in the back seat between the two kids. So maybe she never even ate it?
I didn't like what she did either. Even if she was upset over their affair and I certainly can understand her being upset. But to mess with someone like that didn't seem right either.
Back from a big, big evening out, lol. It's snowing a bit here and the wind has been blowing all day. I can still hear it whistling out there.
The first time through I was convinced she'd committed suicide, but this time through I'm not sure whether to think she was poisoned (we don't know if she ate that salad), suicide or an accident.
One thing I really like about the movie is how it is also about HW, and how Jeffrey is living a lie while also pushing movies that are a lie. That whole bit about Tootsie being a political movie; I don't know whether to laugh of cry. And that final scene where he says he is bisexual, and not doing it for work. He claims that half of HW is out, and of course we all know that is a lie, so I think he's trying to convince himself of that.
Sorry this flu is kicking me good.
The picture - yes it from when he called his ex wife and son about getting the million for the screenplay. What stuck me about it was how it reminded me of the painting Jacques-Louis David's The Death of Marat
Yes PG - I thought the same thing about the scarf.
I notices how Robert was dresses in grey and how everyone else was dressed in soft pastel like colors or white. Wondered if it was to show grief or isolation.
In the opening when he gets the glass of sparkling water says a lot about the world Robert is entering into.
It was brilliant to use the sprinkler against the window to convey the feeling Elaine has when she found out about Robert and Jeffery.
I might be wrong but I thought she asked someone to get Robert's files from Dr. Ross (the therapist they shared) for her. Remember that silhouette of her and someone at the base of the stairs and something about getting it all?
Stubborn - Peter is amazing in the scene in the first time Robert and Jeffery are together. To get to that level of emotion and to do it over and over (you wonder how many take it took) shows what a great actor he is. You wonder what it took and what was tapped to get that performance.
I saw the movie having elements of Altman's The Player and Cukor's classic Gaslight with modern technology.
Whew that was long .... more later
I have to say, I really liked this movie and hated it at the same time. Haven’t had that happen in a long time. I was struck particularly by the emotions of Richard. On one hand he was a suffering victim of his own grief but yet also a cheating liar on the other. I had a hard time feeling sorry for him. How could he actually spend time with Elaine knowing that he was cheating with her husband? And the line from Jeffrey about “doing whatever you want - as long as you don’t call it what it is” made me cringe. Do people actually live their lives that way? Funny how we justify things to ourselves. What was really intriguing was how did Elaine know all those personal things about Robert and Malcolm? It doesn’t seem like Jeffrey knew about them. Did I miss something there? And why would Elaine care enough to do try to get into Richards psyche like that? At first I thought it was revenge but then it seemed to change into a real need to know what was going on in Roberts head.
Interesting scene with Robert changing the names in the document to Maggie.
The scene where Jeffrey talks about Elaine and his feelings about his life made me think about BM. Would Ennis have made a different choice early on if he knew that he would have to live without Jack years later?
I thought the acting was really good. Peters performance was very realistic except for the crying scene. I’m surprised that I had never heard of this movie before. Maybe because it had a gay theme it wasn’t promoted enough? That would seem very HW I guess. I’m glad they brought that up in the movie as well. I didnt care for the ending either. Too many things left out there unresolved.
"Regarding how she finds out so much about Robert, there is that scene when she is in the pool and someone on the phone tells her "he got it.""
Oh ok Destiny. I forgot about that part. But the stuff she was telling him seemed so personal. That must have been one heck of an investigator : )
Didn't watch the movie but all of your comments are still interesting. US National figure skating championships are right now so I'm focused on that.
"It was brilliant to use the sprinkler against the window to convey the feeling Elaine has when she found out about Robert and Jeffery. "
I agree Special. That scene let you know that the whole feeling of the movie was about to change.
"I might be wrong but I thought she asked someone to get Robert's files from Dr. Ross (the therapist they shared) for her."
I wonder who that was and how they could have gotten access.
Ok, I'll be back later.
There may be some *spoilers* here, so "Scroll on by-y-y" if you want to enjoy The Dying Gaul totally. I stayed away from any reviews or info about it, so I was stunned by its beauty.
TDG was just wonderful; haunting. It was filmed beautifully, as Elaine went about her elegant lifestyle, and I liked what they did with music, such as this song. Haunting. I've never seen Peter more beautiful, unknowingly seductive? and vulnerable, and so fascinating to both of them. I think Elaine would have liked to be with him too. He was striking. I'm going to have to watch it again, because it's the kind of film you could see a lot in. I'm still processing it, I'm going to have to think a lot about it, because I know I'll have more to say. It makes you feel something, but you can't cry about it. It did remind me a lot of about the things we discuss about HW, one striking comment the charming and hypnotic J made "We can do whatever we want, as long as we don't call it what it is.", including changing scripts around to what they "think" the viewers will want. For R, that screenplay was a chronicle of his life. And I have to say, I thought the part where he told R what he wanted to do with him was hot. :)
I thought Elaine's activities were rather cruel to Robert, using what she knew about him unfairly for her own reasons, but then I thought in her own way, "ArkAngel" was maybe an intermediary, bringing a message from Malcom to Robert to put his mind at ease.
I wondered if, at the end, if it was suicide or an accident, but there's an element of anger and punishing J because she took the kids and gave specific instructions to the nanny about J. I wasn't sure I was going to be able to find it, but I did, and I'm glad I did. Relationships and feelings between people are complicated, you can't always rationalize things away.
There's lots of symbolism, water, swimming, fruit of poisonous roots, karma, Buddhism, arc angels, and certainly a couple deceiving each other seemed to create a karmic ripple in charmed lives that flowed along mostly uneventfully, with the only trouble remote control whose batteries weren't working.
It was brilliant to use the sprinkler against the window to convey the feeling Elaine has when she found out about Robert and Jeffery.
Yes, this was brilliant, I thought too.
Good mooooorning. lol. More insight. Good mention of the sprinklers on the window. I forgot about that but at that moment in the movie, it was so, what's the word I want to use? It was such a startling moment. Not the word I wanted, but oh well. ping! ping! ping! over and over and over, the way sprinklers do. Almost to the point of making you want to yell "Stop it!!!!" But it was almost like background music at that moment in the movie.
And then Jeffrey taps on the window and just startles the heck out of her. A couple of times, I have no idea how her or Robert had the concentration to keep on typing while they were trying to talk on the phone or talking through the window at the same time. While still maintaining some matter of decorum over what was being shared over the internet discussion.
I'll have to watch it again before returning it back to Netflix. I know I missed stuff. At first, I wondered if maybe Elaine had eaten some of the salad and that was what made her crash. I can't tell.
And Elaine had told Robert that Jeffrey just wanted the sex from him. I don't think that was true. I think Jeffrey was entranced by Robert from the start.
US National figure skating championships are right now so I'm focused on that.
lol, Wicked! Well, you're gone to us with those on, anyway! I guess it is skating season now, isn't it? Happy watching! It certainly is the weather for it, that's for sure.
I enjoyed your comments, Clarity. I wonder, too, why I hadn't heard of this movie before. I reckon because of some of the content. I forgot to notice the year it was made. I thought it was captivating; I usually don't like being all tense during a movie, but I think I could handle it because there wasn't any onscreen violence. It was more of a mind-game type of tension. The ending kind of left me all unsatisfied, too. What were Robert's feelings toward Jeffrey, anyway? Was it really all just about getting the movie made? Robert didn't strike me as the kind of guy who would do that. But then he was being totally truthful when he was talking to ArchAngel.
Sigh. Lots of questions.
I agree Special about your comments on the sprinkler. I really liked the way the movie looked, the colors used, the angles, etc. I was surprised at that since Lucas works primarily in theater, and in indie films like this you don't always get such attention.
Clarity, I can understand why you say you both loved and hated this film. That is exactly how I felt after first watching it, but then I found I couldn't stop thinking about the film either, which also makes it a big plus in my book. I forget so many movies shortly after seeing them, even if I enjoyed them at the time.
I thought she got a lot of the info from the Screenplay? And from the discussions in the chatrooms; people are surprisingly forthcoming and reveal much under pseudonyms. It wouldn't take much to put two and two together; unless Elaine went through the therapist's files, it would be extremely poor practice for the therapist to have revealed anything among clients intentionally. The therapist seemed genuinely confused. I didn't see what was on all of te disks.
I definitely got a theater feel from the diaglogue too. I can't stop thinking about this movie either! It's really beautiful.
^^oops, that was me.
Interesting comment about the sparkling water:
I noticed when Jeffrey informed Robert that they would have to rewrite, adulterate or "dilute" or otherwise change his screenplay to accomodate "the public's" sensibilities, he walked out and in doing so kicked over the glass and bottle of sparkling water, intentionally or accidentally.
I'm going to see Benjamin Button tonight, and I may miss Prayers for Bobby, I hope not! Will Lifetime repeat it?
Sorry, I meant Spesh's comment about the sparkling water was interesting, made me think of the tampering with of the screenplay.
Northeast, PFB will be on Lifetime tomorrow night @ 8pm ET and on the 27th at 9pm ET. I just looked at Lifetime.com and they mentioned that.
Interesting observation on the spilling of sparkling water. I didn't notice that at all.
Does anybody understand why Robert eats a little bit of that poisonous plant? I don't get that.
It could be many reasons; I thought. He's upset with himself, maybe feels wrongly responsible about what's happened with the three of them and wants to kill himself, and he obviously misses Malcolm terribly and wants to join him. At the last minute he thinks better of it and spits it out. I can't remember what kind of plant it is, it may have just made him sick to his stomach. Jeffrey was obviously a man used to getting what he wanted, whether screenplays or lovers, that's what I thought the "I got it" meant.
I also thought that possibly Jeffrey wanted Elaine and Robert to get to know each other so they could all be together. It looked like E & R were getting cozy in the theater. I thought it was interesting that Jeffrey was sensitive to noise and sound; when he closed the window to the droning lawn mower I didn't think anything of it, until he also gave a cough drop or something to a coughing guy in the theater. Don't know what that means, if anything. I'm the same way, hypersensitive to noise and sound, that's why I noticed.
Thanks PG for the info about PFB. If I don't catch it tonight, I'll watch tomorrow for sure.
Also, Robert may have had some guilt about the euthanasia, so I'm glad in a way about ArkAngel coming to him. Jeffrey was manipulative, of both his wife and and Robert's fragile emotional state; maybe not intentionally but because he wants what he wants. He was very seductive too.
Well, that's enough outta me for one day, I think. Talk to you all later. :)
Aw Northeast! I don't get enough of your comments. Wow, you notice some great little things. I need to go watch movies with you. I didn't see the coughdrop thing. And I also don't remember the closing of the window either.
So many things to watch for when I do watch it again.
Thanks, PG, for the info on PFB. If I don't catch it tonight, I'll watch it tomorrow for sure. I love, love, love a good movie discussion too, we should all have a "live" one someday, a movie and a lively dinner after. :)
I finally figured out what made me feel like crying and I couldn't. How profound the experience of love is, for each and every one of us, regardless of who we are, gay or straight, and how the same it is. And how difficult it must have been for Robert when Malcolm was so sick, and he lovingly ended his suffering. A very affecting movie. And how the things we do can affect others, even if we don't think so. Ok, I promise, that's it!
Interesting discussion guys. There sure is a lot of layers to this film. For me the twist at the end was pure irony. When I watched the film I thought that killing Elaine was Robert's revenge for replacing his male lover in the script with a woman; Jeffrey changed the script so Robert changed Jeffrey's life to mirror it. By changing the script Jeffrey is suggesting the grief of a heterosexual couple is more valid, so Robert turns the tables and does in real life what Jeffrey did with his story.
The Dying Gaul was a play before it was a movie, hence the theatrical dialogue. It played off-Broadway. The film played at one of the art houses in NY, it got good reviews as I recall, but it didn't last very long, disappeared before I got a chance to see it until it came out on dvd.
One small thing, I think when I saw it before it was an unrated version, and unless my memory is playing tricks on me, the sex scenes were more explicit, especially the in Jeffrey's office, it wasn't just in silouete.
^^[Destiny wore out that part on all the DG dvds and that's why no one else could see it.]
No I didn't. :-D
Orchid, what you said about the ending is very interesting.
Because I'd originally thought it was suicide I didn't think about the murder angle. I think one reason why Robert initially eats the root and then puts it in Elaine's salad is fear of someone finding out that he killed his lover. I think there are probably a lot of reasons, and the one you mention Orchid is probably one of them, although not the only one, or it probably would have happened sooner.
One thing my gf said is that she thought Jeffrey might be based on a real person, in part because he seemed more fully-formed than the other characters. It made me wonder if indeed this wasn't based in part on Lucas' experience trying to get his scripts done in HW.
Destiny wearing out the dvd's, ha ha. :D
Orchid!!! Interesting thoughts, that is definitely a whole different angle on the ending.
Oh, Robert was definitely mad with Elaine. And I suppose mostly over her impersonation of Malcolm?
Great discussion today. I really did enjoy it and the movie.
I enjoyed the discussion too. The fact there are so many interpretations definitely makes this film special. Great film club suggestion Destiny!
Thanks, I figured that even if people hated it there would at plenty to talk about.
Great discussion on the film and even though I haven't seen it as yet I'll be sure and find it somewhere up here. Your comments, observations, theories, and perspective have been just great.
No sign of PFB tonight here on Cdn TV but I'll be watching for it. Really looking forward to seeing both of these films.
Cheers...
S.
"Does anybody understand why Robert eats a little bit of that poisonous plant? I don't get that."
I thought it was out of guilt too Northeast. But then I think he gets mad and decides to take revenge instead.
"For me the twist at the end was pure irony."
Great point Orchid. The film was put together beautifully in that way.
I really enjoy the movie club because it gives me the chance to share ideas with you guys. Im sure a live one would be a blast.
Maybe next time we could have a pre-arranged time to meet in the chat room. That would have been really fun with this movie since there was so much to discuss.
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